#416 - How to unlock people's potential - an interview with Ernesto J. Gómez by Niels Brabandt
How to unlock people's potential - an interview with Ernesto J. Gómez by Niels Brabandt
Organisations try to unlock the maximum potential from any team. Most organisations fail to do so. Ernesto J. Gómez is a former VP and CHRO. He delivered on this promise. In this interview with Niels Brabandt, he shares his insights, expertise and experience.
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More on this topic in this week's podcast: Videocast / Apple Podcasts / Spotify
For the videocast’s and podcast’s transcript, read below.
Is excellent leadership important to you?
Let's have a chat: NB@NB-Networks.com
Contact: Niels Brabandt on LinkedIn
Website: www.NB-Networks.biz
Niels Brabandt is an expert in sustainable leadership with more than 20 years of experience in practice and science.
Niels Brabandt: Professional Training, Speaking, Coaching, Consulting, Mentoring, Project & Interim Management. Event host, MC, moderator.
Transcript
Niels Brabandt
Unlocking people's potential. Many organizations try to do exactly that. However, many organizations fail to do that. So I'm very happy that we have someone here who actually succeeded to do that. Hello and welcome, Ernesto Gomez.
Ernesto J. Gómez
Hello, Nelis. How are you doing?
Niels Brabandt
I'm doing very well. Thank you very much. So I saw on your CV you have been the VP at Alpha. I mean, the they they they have more than 80,000 people working for them, and then you became the CHRO of Sigma. So most likely, I I ate something which your company produced. More than 40,000 people on staff here. And when you want to unlock especially in these large organizations, when when you want to unlock people's potential because that that that that's your new book.
Regrowth, how organizations can overcome stalling by unlocking other people's their their people's potential. What I see in many organizations, they say, okay. If if we want to hit these next goals, our method is we we push harder that is what most people do they say okay let let's push harder let's raise the goals and when they don't meet the goals there will be most likely sanctions so what do you think of that kind of approach
Ernesto J. Gómez
thank you for asking me that because I I really think that for a while, you're putting pressure into teams, demanding more, requiring, you know, raising the bar constantly. You used to deliver results, quite frankly. And and, many organizations and leaders use that style just because it was, profitable for them to do that. The problem is that when, you know, times change and you require more creativity, ingenuity, innovation, or you require people to be kind of, you know, imaginative or have more foresight, you you cannot push for that. Those things, you can request for people to to do certain things. But all of a sudden, you find that just raising the bar and being, you know, applying stress to the team doesn't cut it. So, that that's what I call kind of, you know, the the push approach to to leadership.
And and for these days, you have to kind of instead of having that as your baseline mode, you have to switch into a more full leadership where you connect with people. And and when you connect with people, you try to find out, you know, what is this person what does this person have that, you know, I can access, you know, and and and what is inside the person that can be of value. And it's kind of a mental switch because, it requires something which is not really easy, which is let me break through, gain trust, get closer to the team, to the person. And this is something that we have not been touched to do, because we know as leaders, you're supposed to be the boss, have all the answers. But all of a sudden, you have to, you know, in order to really access and pull this potential out of a person, you have to connect and understand what this person has inside. How else can you unlock potential if not by, you know, probing and and knowing what the person can do? And this requires, more of a humanistic approach, which is is not, intuitive for for leaders these days, but this is what you have to do actually to to break through.
Teams are the basic unit of analysis of any organization. Right? I mean, we we kind of focus on people, but, actually, what we want to unlock is the potential in teams. Mhmm. And and it just by focusing in in people and trying to, make this environment where people can collaborate together, that's when you start, you know, seeing, better better results. And I I know it's it's not easy and it's uncomfortable for many leaders, you know, to do that. But that quite frankly, that's the only way to really, see what a person has to to give.
I don't know if you know about this. I haven't seen reports or serious studies about what is the percentage that of potential that you can unlock from people. But what I've seen and what I've, you know, asked many leaders and CEO is that as a general rule, people are only are only operating at 50% of what they can do. Mhmm. At least, you know, 50%.
Niels Brabandt
You want to unlock the other half. You you want to unlock the so let's say let's say I'm your CEO and and you say, okay. We need to get closer to the people and and and unlock their potential, so we have to understand the teams and the people. And then I'm a CEO and say, look, Ernesto, we we are a stock we we are a stock exchange listed company. We need to bring results in quick. And your approach seems to take quite a long time. And when there's one thing we do not have in this business is a lot of time.
So how can I unlock people's potential without saying, oh, we're gonna have this five year development program where most likely the board will say, sorry? That's just too long.
Ernesto J. Gómez
Yeah. First of all, that that's a that's a great question because I've been working for public companies for a while.
Niels Brabandt
I know.
Ernesto J. Gómez
I I retired a a a year ago, but I know how difficult it is, you know, to to comply with markets. First of all, there is this kind of a skewed way of looking at things that you you go from being bad to being good in just one. That that that's not real. That doesn't happen. It doesn't mean that you cannot get better, you know, gradually. But you don't go from bad to good, you know, in in just a a snap. Yeah. Second, I would say that if you start working I propose in my book a model, a framework, what I call the stewardship model, which which kind of, you know, plays in in the in the realm of what I've been telling you about this pull approach in which you just you have to do four things pretty much.
First of all, you have to make sure that there is the ownership if in in each and every and understand what they are supposed to do. Second, you have to make sure that the team plays in a way that help others grow. It's not that, you know, I'm gonna be measured and valued just because of my results, but because of how I make the team better.
Niels Brabandt
Mhmm.
Ernesto J. Gómez
You have to make sure that people balance, you know, what I call truth versus ego. Ego, it's good up to a certain, you know, level. You know? The the
Niels Brabandt
become dangerous very quickly. And when you worked on board level, you have probably met quite a number of people who have an ego that doesn't fit through the front door.
Ernesto J. Gómez
Exactly. Yeah. So but but when when you are supposed to find ways to to to I mean, I like the I like a lot this, this saying that says, you don't have to be right. You have to get it right. Mhmm. So you have to maintain a mentality where it doesn't matter if you are right or not. You know, as long as you get it right, you're gonna you're gonna be, you know, making good decisions and and and delivering good results.
And the fourth and and last step, it's, you know, create what it's called psychological safety where people are are free to speak up.
Niels Brabandt
Extremely important topic today.
Ernesto J. Gómez
You have ownership. You have a people that plays as a team. You have a balance within the ego and truth, and everybody feels to you know, it's it's safe to contribute. Those four elements, when you start, you know, installing that framework in the organization and scaling that framework, immediately, you're gonna see results. That's at least my experience because teams ignite. And and potential is it's interesting because potential, it's really, an assumption.
It's on a horizon. You see, this is what I think I can do. But as you get better, all of a sudden the goalpost moves and you realize that you can do even better than you thought. So that's what I'd like to think about. You know, how can people start if you start by saying I'm just a 50% of my potential. Imagine what you can accomplish once you move, you know, in that path so that that's the the philosophy. And and what I'm saying is this is not just a a a conceptual idea.
I've tried it in teams, and, and it works. It it, that's that's my my experience.
Niels Brabandt
Mhmm. So when you, from the highest level now, say this is the approach we want to take, that is, of course, a best case scenario when from the highest level someone says we're gonna take this approach to get to know people, to get to know closer to the employee, to unlock the team's potential. And suddenly, somewhere on a mid tier level, there is a manager, which is probably two, three levels below you from a CHRO level, who says, look, I wanna get my next promotion. And when I when I squeeze 20% more in productivity out of here, I will be promoted, and then I'm gone from that team, so all the negative consequences will hit for the next person. How do you make sure that this does not happen? That some people on lower level suddenly say, look. My agenda is more important than your agenda.
Ernesto J. Gómez
You know, the approach that we followed, in the past when we scaled the the culture of a company was a top down approach, as you were saying. You know? So so first of all, you have to have a convinced c suite, and the leader, you know, the c c
Niels Brabandt
Nothing happens without them.
Ernesto J. Gómez
Nothing happens without them. And and you start, you know, showing with example that that's what you are gonna go. But as you kinda go through the organization, it's very common that what you mentioned happens. You know? The middle part, it's it's very difficult. So what I what I suggested and what we started experimenting with, it's kind of a a a bottom up approach as well. And all of a sudden, you have both, you know, put you know, working at the same time.
Now the medium part is very complicated because as you were saying, people are there you find normally people with tenure, that have, you know, have been doing this for a while.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah.
Ernesto J. Gómez
And and they have results. They have a position to to take care of.
So it's difficult. But, you know, slowly but surely, those who are not players are gonna show up. And you can get feedback from, you know, their bosses and, of course, their their employees just because you're doing the two approach. And then you start focusing each, you know, by one by one by one. Mhmm. And at some point, I have to tell you transformations are difficult for some people. And I I used to I used that as a phrase that I'm not sure is very familiar with.
It's either you change people or you change people.
Niels Brabandt
Mhmm.
Ernesto J. Gómez
So so you change a person or
Niels Brabandt
Yeah. You exchange them. Yeah.
Ernesto J. Gómez
Saying, you know, you're not right for this position. Yeah. That's the mentality that you have to to to operate with.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah. Let's say when you want to convince because you said you have to convince, c suite. So we agree here without them nothing's happening. One thing which I found extremely interesting on your LinkedIn where you said leadership is not about mastering a style. It's about developing range. When you joined the company, I am pretty sure there were some people in positions for a long time, five to five years, ten years, or even longer. And now you show up and you say you should change your style.
And someone on c suite said, look, I'm in this business for quite a while. I'm successful for a reason. What do you wanna tell me how to run this business? How do you convince someone who is so sure about doing it right in just one leadership style way, which is, as we all know, scientifically speaking, is outdated. But how do you convince someone that they suddenly need to adapt to the employee rather than telling employees adapt to my style because I'm more the authoritarian type of whatever they're gonna claim?
Ernesto J. Gómez
Well, first of all, what I've seen is that there has to be a pain point in the organization. If there is no pain point, something that, you know, really I mean, you're stalling or there is something that is happening, you know, in your environment that is worrying you. I mean, it's very difficult to move per a person who feels comfortable in a situation. So there has to be a situation where serious enough for the company to consider, you know, we have to change our ways because the environment is changing. Think about this. You know, the last five years in the world, there was a pandemic, war, climate supply chains, etcetera. If you were to ask leaders, do you think that the next five years are gonna be easier than the last five years?
More than likely, you're gonna get the result that I don't know. Probably, it's gonna be more difficult, you know, even. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if if that's not really a motivator to do
Niels Brabandt
things point.
Ernesto J. Gómez
You know, then then then is there's gonna be a big problem because I've seen that and I've seen this many, many times in my experience. There are two kinds of people. People that wanna change and no do not know how, that I can help, or people know they have to change, but in the bottom of their heart, they don't want to. Mhmm. That it's beyond redemption, in my experience. If a person knows and he feels and hears, yeah, I I I should change, but deep inside yourself, you don't want to change, it's gonna be a hassle.
So so what I would say to answer your question is a combination of, is the environment serious enough for me to consider change? Mhmm. And I'm willing to hear new ideas on on how to reach my goals, and then I can help.
Niels Brabandt
Excellent. So when now people say, look. This this all sounds extremely to the point to what I need. And, you've written a book, Regrowth. We talked about that. How organizations can overcome stalling by unlocking their people's potential. When people buy your book, what's in there?
What do they get out of it? What is this book about? Can you give us a a a a brief summary of what what can people expect when they buy your book?
Ernesto J. Gómez
Well, first of all, as we say, I state saying that, you know, we have a growth mandate. I mean, if you take up a leadership position, you're expected to improve something, you know, market share, revenues, profitability, whatever. So so what I kind of say is, well, if you wanna play, at at the systems, level and you have to move the whole system, what do you have to do? And I I suggest you have to work on three dimensions, three things. First, the talent density of your your organization. Second, of course, the culture and then mindset. Talent density means that you have to have the best people, possible that you can afford in key positions.
You don't have to have the best of the best in each and every position of the company. Mhmm. Yearly will be great.
But, you know,
Niels Brabandt
we should There there is competition on the market and there are constraints. You can't always get the best person working for you and your location at any point in time given.
Ernesto J. Gómez
That's correct. So in real life, what you wanna make sure of is where your competitive advantages are, you need to have the best people. So you have to kind of do a soul searching about, you know, where am I lacking? You know? What what what kind of company, what kind of, leadership pipeline I have to make sure that that's gonna work? Because if you don't have talent, I mean, forget it. You cannot really build a company just out of culture.
Culture is important. But But you have a biz a bad business model and you have bad people, it's very difficult to succeed. So first of all, make sure you have the talent density. Second, you have to have this enabler, which is culture. Right? And and and culture, it is extremely important. And what I have found is that you have to design for adaptability in culture.
You know, the main problem of organization is renewal. That that's always been the problem. How can you renew yourself? So you have to design for that and make sure that and it's difficult because if you're reasonably successful company, you probably have locked into certain ways of doing things. And and you have to start questioning, you know, not only those, but what kind of what is the the space that I want to occupy in the future? Meaning, do I want to start extend beyond my core? And if you go further from your core, you have to work on your vessel and your vessel is your company. So Yeah.
What kind of things you have to take up
Niels Brabandt
Excellent metaphor. Excellent metaphor. Yeah.
Ernesto J. Gómez
And and I I simplify things. I I say that culture is three things. And I know people are gonna say, what what what do you say? I mean, there are many things. It's the creed, it's the context, and it's the leadership model.
Niels Brabandt
Mhmm. You
Ernesto J. Gómez
have to work on those three things and and and make those work. And finally, at the end or in the end, people who are trying to pursue a transformation, we are in the mindset business, actually, because what you're trying to develop is a mindset within the company, and everything else is means to an end. So you have to start working on what beliefs I wanna make sure that people hold. You know, I say that you have to be you have to also promote agency because you have to have people, you know, do things and then reflect on what you did. Because if you just do with a reflection, it doesn't work. You incorporate that learning, and then you go on to do that. So it's talent density, culture, and mindset.
Those three things, you start design for that, and and that's a transformation.
Niels Brabandt
Excellent. I have one more bonus question. Are you ready for one bonus question? Yeah. Would you say that lifelong learning is important?
Ernesto J. Gómez
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Niels Brabandt
When I when I said, we we receive roughly 400 requests a year, sometimes more for people who want to be on that podcast. And lifelong learning is something I consider important as well. I mean, I looked at UCV, and and and this is just an excerpt from Stanford, Sloan Business School at MIT, Wharton Business School, which is the number one business school in the world at the moment, Kellogg School of Management, Chicago Booth London Business School, IMD Business School. So tell me the secret why I speak to so many people on c level who tell me lifelong learning is important. And on their CV, I don't I I do not see anything near that because they they tell me our business is so tense. I don't have the time to go to these seminars. So how can you make it happen with a 80,000, 40 thousand people company on c suite level, and others say, I don't have the time for that.
What's your secret?
Ernesto J. Gómez
I I really think that, first of all, I I I've been people think myself in my life. You know? In the book, the last chapter are devoted to how can you self lead your own transformation as a person. Right. And and because I talk about companies and then I say, you know what, I'm gonna put a bonus chapter, as you were saying. And I noticed that I had eight major transformations in my life. And what I believe is that you have to have a strong why, a very, you know, robust aspiration.
Otherwise, it's just hard. I mean, combining work with learning, it's it's hard. It's difficult. Yeah. You have you have to have a a good enough reason to do that. And I I think it goes
Niels Brabandt
I did two MBAs behind my work. Tell me about it. Yeah. So absolutely. You need to have a why for that. Yes.
Ernesto J. Gómez
Exactly. And and that that's what I think that curiosity is one of the major most important attributes of of any leader. You know? If you are not curious, if you don't want to, you know, up your game all the time knowing that whatever you're doing today, you know, like like like this book, what brought you here won't get you there. If you don't do that, you're gonna pretty pretty soon, you're gonna be in the, cemetery of sameness. Yeah. And and that's something that you really have to to to believe.
Unfortunately, many of the CEO and c street peep people that I work with sometimes don't realize that. But this is something that I believe should be, a new, you know, value or or or principle in organizations that you really have to be able to renew yourself. Otherwise, you may not really fit for the company.
Niels Brabandt
And, also, when you claim that your people need to learn and develop and adapt to any situation while at the same time on c suite, you do not do that, you probably lose your credibility for anyone in the organization because they say, I should do this and that and an MBA besides my work and all of these certifications that you don't do
Ernesto J. Gómez
That's exactly right. I mean, you use all credibility.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah. Excellent. I think these are the perfect final words. Regrowth. How organizations can overcome stalling by unlocking their people's potential. And, Nastegomus, thank you very much for your time.
Ernesto J. Gómez
Thank you, Nils. Thank you.