#480 Josh Epperson and Niels Brabandt on How Leaders Must Orchestrate Human-AI Collaboration
Josh Epperson and Niels Brabandt on How Leaders Must Orchestrate Human-AI Collaboration
Artificial intelligence is no longer a distant technological prospect. It is becoming an active participant in organisational workflows. The critical leadership question is no longer whether AI will enter organisations, but how leaders will orchestrate collaboration between humans and AI agents.
In a high-level interview, leadership expert Niels Brabandt speaks with Josh Epperson, senior executive, author of Bacon, Bots and Teamwork, and recognised authority on human-AI collaboration. Their conversation provides a strategic roadmap for decision-makers navigating one of the most profound transformations in modern organisational leadership.
Why fear is the greatest barrier to successful AI adoption
Josh Epperson identifies fear as the most significant obstacle preventing effective AI adoption. Employees often fear job displacement, organisational disruption, and loss of professional identity.
However, Josh Epperson emphasises that fear leads to disengagement, resistance, and missed opportunities. Leaders must instead foster healthy engagement with AI technologies.
The most effective leaders create environments where employees actively explore, experiment, and collaborate with AI tools.
Human identity remains central in the age of AI
A critical insight shared by Josh Epperson and reinforced by Niels Brabandt is that human identity remains irreplaceable. While AI excels at pattern recognition, data processing, and repetitive workflows, humans possess judgement, lived experience, and consciousness.
Successful organisations recognise this distinction. AI enhances human capability rather than replacing it.
Leadership responsibility is to define workflows where humans and AI contribute complementary strengths.
Why leaders must start with practical experimentation
Josh Epperson advises leaders to avoid theoretical discussions about AI and instead begin with practical experimentation. Leaders should identify repetitive tasks, operational inefficiencies, or administrative burdens and explore how AI can support these workflows.
This approach delivers immediate, measurable value while building organisational confidence.
Practical engagement transforms AI from an abstract threat into a tangible strategic tool.
Small organisations have a strategic advantage in AI adoption
Contrary to popular belief, Josh Epperson explains that small organisations possess significant advantages in AI adoption. They have fewer legacy systems, less technological debt, and greater organisational agility.
Small organisations can implement AI faster, experiment more freely, and realise value more quickly than larger enterprises.
Leadership agility becomes a competitive advantage.
How leaders must demonstrate value to drive organisational adoption
One of the most powerful strategies identified by Josh Epperson is demonstrating tangible value through pilot initiatives. Leaders should implement AI solutions within their own functional domains, generate measurable improvements, and share results across the organisation.
Visible success creates organisational momentum.
Leadership influence is established through demonstrated results, not theoretical arguments.
Leadership in the AI era requires orchestration, not control
The leadership model itself is evolving. As Josh Epperson explains, leaders must transition from direct operational control to orchestration. Leaders coordinate networks of humans and AI agents to achieve organisational outcomes.
This orchestration model defines the future of leadership.
Conclusion: The future of leadership depends on human-AI collaboration
The interview between Josh Epperson and Niels Brabandt makes clear that AI adoption is fundamentally a leadership challenge.
Leaders who embrace experimentation, maintain human identity, and orchestrate human-AI collaboration will position their organisations for sustained success.
Those who resist risk falling behind.
Leadership in the age of AI requires courage, clarity, and orchestration.
Niels Brabandt
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More on this topic in this week's videocast and podcast with Niels Brabandt: Videocast / Apple Podcasts / Spotify
For the videocast’s and podcast’s transcript, read below this article.
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Contact: Niels Brabandt on LinkedIn
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Niels Brabandt is an expert in sustainable leadership with more than 20 years of experience in practice and science.
Niels Brabandt: Professional Training, Speaking, Coaching, Consulting, Mentoring, Project & Interim Management. Event host, MC, Moderator.
Podcast and Videocast Transcript
Niels Brabandt
When AI enters, things become different. However, the question is: how do you want to make them different, and how do you want to make them work? And we have an expert with us here today. Hello and welcome, Josh Epperson.
Josh Epperson
Hello, good to be here with you.
Niels Brabandt
Thank you very much for taking the time. I know you're too modest to tell anyone, but besides being a Senior Manager and Executive at Amazon, you hold the minimum of three master's degrees, so you really know what you're talking about. And also, when I prepared for this interview, I saw your new book, which is "Bacon, Bots and Teamwork." And of course, first I want to know: what's your take on this book? And I also need to know—bacon? So you need to tell me what is the deal with the bacon, so go for it.
Josh Epperson
Well, two things. One, the book really aims to answer one simple question: that if agents are joining our teams, what the heck does success look like? And I got really curious with that question because nobody seemed to be addressing it. And so the whole concept of human-AI collaboration is what this book goes after.
Josh Epperson
Bacon is what happened that really spawned this book, which was I was in a rush one morning trying to get my kids out the door cooking breakfast, and I didn't have enough time. I didn't have enough time to do what was required of me that day at work to prep for it, and I didn't have enough time to pack and prep my kids' lunches. So I launched an agent in the background, which created a parallel workflow, and then I went and cooked some bacon.
Niels Brabandt
Oh, there you are. And one aspect which immediately caught my attention: on your website, it immediately addresses one issue. Because as soon as you say agents come into town, many people think, "Okay, look, is my job gone by next week? Is AI going to replace me?" What's your take on that? Because that is probably the number one fear that people have at the moment.
Josh Epperson
Yeah, and I love that you said that's the number one fear. Because the first thing is all I can say is there's nothing to be afraid of. And quite candidly, we don't have time for fear. So that's the first thing.
Josh Epperson
And then the second thing is we truly are better together. Third, identity matters. And what we need to do is we need to get regrounded in what makes humans uniquely special.
Josh Epperson
Because it's only once we understand our identity, what sets us apart, our embodied lived experience, our judgment, our consciousness, our volition—these sorts of things that AI cannot do nor will it—that we really need to clarify and lean into so that we can clarify some workflows to say, "Hey, this is what AI agents are great at. This is what humans are great at."
Josh Epperson
And by the way, what we're great at is not necessarily higher production, faster cycles, more complex data revs. And guess what? That's okay because we have a unique place in the story.
Niels Brabandt
Absolutely. So do you think that anyone can just say, "When we focus on being more human, that this is going to be the recipe for success?" Because some people will now sit there and say, "Listen, Josh, with three master's degrees is probably the easiest head of the game. I'm sitting here working on a production facility with insane work hours, and I'm just afraid that some AI robot is showing up saying, 'Not you anymore by tomorrow.'" And especially in certain countries, you can be fired on the spot. And that's what they fear when AI comes through the door, which is why they probably even manipulate implementation.
Josh Epperson
Yeah. And no, it has to get much more practical than theoretical. And the thing—I was on a conversation yesterday—the thing I keep telling people, first of all, it depends on where you're at in your journey. So if you've dabbled and played with agents and you're a user of AI, that's one answer. And where I usually start, though, is you haven't done anything. It's a colleague and a friend that I have who said, "Gosh, I just need to get more comfy with AI." And I said, "Bacon, Bots and Teamwork is for you." Because really, it's the first step on the journey. And the practicality of that is just go try. Just go try.
Josh Epperson
Nils, it came alive to me probably four years ago. And I'm a low-code, no-code guy. I'm not a tech. So just so you're clear, it really came alive to me when I realized that one of the things I love to do is journal. I love to capture my lived experience. It's really cathartic for me, and it's really informative for me. And it's how I remember, which is kind of something that's unique to us. And I realized one morning sitting out on my porch that I have all these journals. I don't know what the heck they say. I never go back and read them. It's the catharsis of writing. And it dawned on me a lot of—I have one journal that I keep on my phone. And it dawned on me that I have this journal, this wealth of information about me. And I was at a low point. And I thought, "You know what? I can extract that as a text file, and I can upload that into Claude. And I can ask Claude, 'What patterns, what themes do you see in this storyline narrative, and who would you call this individual?'" And you know what, Nils? I did it, pulled it out. It didn't take me very long. It took me about 30 minutes to do. And it brought me to tears.
Josh Epperson
And so what I would say—and it was so good—because the technology is great at recognizing patterns. So if you're in a production floor and you're struggling with pulling efficiency out of the system, a couple of things: start with repetitive tasks. What do you do three, four, five times a week that you grind through that you're like, "Why am I—I don't even like doing this, but I have to do it?" Use the information and data in those repetitive tasks. Dump it into an AI or an agent and say, "How can you make this better?" And don't overthink the prompt. You won't get it right the first time. And guess what? That's okay. And if anything, ask it, say, "Hey, could you improve my prompt to get X, Y, or Z out of this?" And so that's where it becomes really powerful. And that's the human-in-the-loop nature, is that it'll trigger stuff for you from your embodied experience of being on the production floor to think, "Oh, wait, I need to ask it this," or, "Oh, we need to rev on this." Now you're human-in-the-loop, and you're optimizing human-AI collaboration.
Niels Brabandt
Excellent. I mean, this book—I mean, I read your book, obviously. It is grounded in real implementation. It focuses on the human side. It's an actionable framework, which is important. What do you tell people who say, "Look, Josh, I am just not genuinely into tech"? There are people who love smartphones and have Excel at home, and what they do is they do a Word file for the evening fun.
Niels Brabandt
"I am just not really prone to get into technology." What do you tell these people? How should they deal with AI? Because for them, it's even more horrifying because they don't really know what they're dealing with, because they have no contact with that outside working hours, probably, where they most likely only ask Copilot when it's the opening time for the next restaurant next to my office. Yeah.
Josh Epperson
Yeah. Yeah. The thing that I usually say—two things. One, make it personal. Everybody cares about something. And this technology is capable of playing across any domain. So make it personal and start with something that you care about.
Josh Epperson
Two, that I usually go into is I can imagine there's things that you don't like doing in your life. Start with those things and play around and see if you can make some progress and you can get technology working on your behalf in things you don't like.
Niels Brabandt
My first agent expenses report: I am free. I am free ever since.
Josh Epperson
Right? Well, and if you're a small business owner, that becomes really interesting on that example because it'll tell you what you're—not just how much you spent—and you can ingest it and calculate your totals with amazing accuracy.
Josh Epperson
But you can start to generate insights over a breadth of information and data, over a quarter, over half a year, over a year. And you can look at the things that you're spending on.
Josh Epperson
And as a small business owner, you know in your gut what's generating return. You know when the networking dinner worked or it didn't. And so if you're seeing high expenses in one area and you're thinking, "That's not my lived experience," I need to get curious about that.
Niels Brabandt
Absolutely. What do you tell people when they now say, "Look, I think I get it. However, I am a small business, and I think AI is more for the large tech organizations." For us, I mean, we are probably a small travel business somewhere in the rural American countryside. Why should we use AI?
Josh Epperson
Well, so again, I go back to it plays and is capable of playing across any domain, any scope and scale. I think for those individuals in particular, you don't have to get caught up on which large language model, these massive models. Don't get hung up on any of that. I think what you have—and here's where I try to point people back to—you have information and data about what you do on a daily basis. That is gold that you're likely underleveraging. And you can put that to use. And so start small. Pick something small. Again, make it personal and make it something that you hate to do because that's where you'll get the click of, "Oh, wait, if it can do this, it can do something else."
Josh Epperson
And so for a small travel business, agents—actually, that's one of the best use cases, quite frankly—because even with the semi-autonomous workflows right now, we can ask agents not only to generate and create a trip and an itinerary, we can ask it to generate bookings. And it can prompt you with questions. So it doesn't do it without your input, but it can ask you questions around, "Out of these three, which would you book and why?" "Well, I'd book number two because of the location and the proximity to the city." "Ah, great. Goes in memory bank. We can rinse and repeat that over and over again."
Josh Epperson
But again, so fear is a paralyzer. So fear creates unhealthy responses. And even better said, it creates unhealthy engagement. It's usually a turn away or a fight toward, both of which are not productive. There are very few fights that go well at the end. There's very few disengagement when you dissociate that goes well. And so what I am really focused on right now is engagement and how do we get people to healthy engagement around human-AI collaboration. And that's what I encourage. Go towards it, engage it, try it. You will be okay. I promise.
Niels Brabandt
Absolutely. Absolutely. As I read your book, I can tell you this is for middle managers, transition layer managers, from small business to large corporation. There's really something in there for absolutely anyone.
Niels Brabandt
Two more questions I have to wrap up the interview. When now people say, "Hey, I am into AI. I'd love the book. However, guess what? I'm sitting in a business where the owner says, 'Yeah, you got Copilot, so do your little stuff there.' But in my business, no. We are a conservative industry. As you know, we are not into this." So how would you say when people are into AI, or probably your book convinced them to be into AI, but on a higher level, someone says, "Oh, I think it's not for us here." How to convince them?
Josh Epperson
Yeah. So I mean, this is—I've spent the bulk of my career being in a cost center, which means that the business pays for my services. So I am constantly in a position of showing value and worth because they're paying for it. And so I think that's the first thing: you got to create some tangible value in an output. And usually, that means testing and experimenting in a discrete kind of domain.
Josh Epperson
And so for that person who's doing that in their world and they're using Copilot—which, by the way, you can get Copilot in and of itself in your little domain to generate real value—and I'll even say you can get the free version of Copilot. This is often what I tell people: don't pay for anything. Don't pay for anything. There's enough free stuff right now. Go play with the free stuff.
Josh Epperson
Generate real value from something free and put that constraint on yourself because this is what large corporations deal with. Large corporations have resources. So what they do is they often have legacy systems, a lot of tech debt, and a lot of cash. So then they spend, and then they pour more complexity on the system, which makes it even harder. So stop.
Josh Epperson
So when you're trying to show value as that department or function to a broader enterprise or system, don't ask for them to be involved. Just generate real value in your domain area, in your product vertical, in your functional domain of expertise, and share it. Share it with a stakeholder and say, "What do you think?" And guess what? I did this for free on my own. And you get a few revs of that. It's your own pilot sort of program. That's where it starts to get sticky.
Josh Epperson
And so one of the things I write, I have an infographic that shows the three journeys that you have to navigate. So there's the translation layer of the individual that's navigating from tactical to strategic, which is more the middle manager. You have the owner-operator that is going from, "All roads lead to me," to, "I'm orchestrating a network that leads to success." And then you have the legacy corporate leader, which is who you're talking about. And one of the metrics of success that I put in the infographic for them is that in a year, I have 10 stories where I've created pull from other parts of the business to generate value in a similar way that I did in my little domain with this technology.
Niels Brabandt
Brilliant. One last question to wrap up the interview. When now people say, "Hey, I think Josh is really helpful, not only his book, but he himself is very helpful," how can people get in touch with you?
Josh Epperson
Yeah. So you can first, baconbotsandteamwork.com is where you can find this information. And there's lots of resources there linked if you want to go deeper on topics. You can find me on LinkedIn. It's the forward slash Josh Epperson. And then you can find me on my email, Joshua, J-O-S-H-U-A, E-P-P-E-R-S-O-N, at gmail.com.
Niels Brabandt
I think these are the perfect final words. Josh Epperson, thank you very much for your time.
Josh Epperson
Thanks, Nils. Appreciate it.