#506 Presence Without Being Loud: The Leadership Advantage of Strategic Listening and Congruence - Interview with Frankie Kemp
Presence Without Being Loud: The Leadership Advantage of Strategic Listening and Congruence - Interview with Frankie Kemp
In modern organisations, presence is often confused with volume. Those who speak the loudest are frequently perceived as the most influential. Yet this perception is fundamentally flawed.
In this in-depth leadership discussion, Niels Brabandt and Frankie Kemp challenge the widespread assumption that visibility requires loudness. Their conclusion is both counterintuitive and critical for decision-makers. True executive presence is not defined by how much one speaks, but by how effectively one listens, aligns, and communicates.
The Misconception of Loudness
Across corporate environments, a persistent pattern emerges. Individuals equate influence with speaking time and volume. Meetings become arenas where the loudest voices dominate.
However, as Frankie Kemp highlights, loudness does not create influence. In fact, it often diminishes it. Excessive self-promotion signals insecurity rather than authority and leads to disengagement among peers.
Presence is not about being heard constantly. It is about being heard meaningfully.
Charisma, Presence and Influence
A critical distinction must be made between charisma and presence. Drawing on academic research, including the work of Professor John Antonakis, the discussion highlights that influence is built through specific, observable behaviours.
These include:
- Moral conviction
- Storytelling and the use of analogies
- Nonverbal communication aligned with the message
This alignment, often described as congruence, is a defining factor of trust. When verbal and nonverbal signals are inconsistent, credibility deteriorates immediately.
For leaders, this means that presence is not an abstract quality. It is a set of disciplined behaviours that can be developed and refined.
The Power of Nonverbal Communication
Nonverbal communication plays a decisive role in leadership perception. Research demonstrates that observers can accurately assess leadership potential based solely on body language.
Frankie Kemp emphasises the importance of controlled, deliberate gestures within what is described as the power sphere. This controlled expressiveness conveys authority without aggression.
Conversely, self-comforting gestures, such as unnecessary movements or contractions, undermine confidence and signal uncertainty.
For decision-makers, mastering nonverbal communication is not optional. It is a prerequisite for effective leadership.
Listening as a Strategic Skill
Perhaps the most overlooked aspect of presence is listening. Many leaders equate leadership with directing and speaking. This is a profound misunderstanding.
True leadership requires the ability to seek understanding before offering solutions.
Techniques such as looping, where information is paraphrased and validated, enable leaders to uncover underlying issues and align teams effectively.
Niels Brabandt highlights that organisations frequently fail not because of a lack of ideas, but because they solve the wrong problems. Strategic listening prevents this failure.
Balancing Visibility and Restraint
The challenge for many leaders is finding the balance between visibility and restraint. Excessive communication can be as damaging as insufficient communication.
Effective leaders understand when to speak and when to remain silent. They create space for others while maintaining control of the discussion.
Presence, therefore, is not about dominance. It is about influence.
Conclusion: Presence as a Leadership Discipline
The insights from Niels Brabandt and Frankie Kemp redefine presence as a disciplined leadership capability.
It is built on congruence, strategic listening, and controlled communication. It requires self-awareness, preparation, and continuous refinement.
For decision-makers, the implication is clear. Organisations that reward loudness over substance risk undermining their own effectiveness.
eadership presence is not about volume. It is about impact.
Niels Brabandt
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More on this topic in this week's videocast and podcast with Niels Brabandt: Videocast / Apple Podcasts / Spotify
For the videocast’s and podcast’s transcript, read below this article.
Is excellent leadership important to you?
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Niels Brabandt is an expert in sustainable leadership with more than 20 years of experience in practice and science.
Niels Brabandt: Professional Training, Speaking, Coaching, Consulting, Mentoring, Project & Interim Management. Event host, MC, Moderator.
Podcast and Videocast Transcript
Niels Brabandt
Back by popular demand, part two: presence without being loud. You probably know that you can be present and you can be loud; however, some people say, "That's just not me. I need to be present, however, without being loud."
Niels Brabandt
Also, on the other side, some people might say, "When someone's loud, I actually don't like to talk with them because I rather feel being shouted or talked at, not being talked with me."
Niels Brabandt
And we have an expert how to do it right with us here today. Hello and welcome back, Frankie Camp.
Frankie Kemp
Hi Niels, how are you?
Niels Brabandt
Very good, thank you very much. We had a brilliant interview about talking, interviewing at the top for the C-suite. So when we now say because there, of course, it is not only there, but in general, it is important to be present.
Niels Brabandt
However, many people say the most present people in our organization are the ones who are the loudest in the meeting. And when you are the loudest in the meeting, people perceive you as being present. So most people start to copy that kind of behavior and say, "I'm getting louder as well to be more seen."
Niels Brabandt
Other people say, "Look, this is just not my personality. Is it just bad luck for me now in this corporation?" What's your take on that? How can I be present without being loud?
Frankie Kemp
Well, there's a difference as well between loudness and being heard, and we stop listening to loud people. I would say that presence is largely about listening and congruence in your behavior.
Niels Brabandt
What does that mean for you?
Frankie Kemp
Okay. We all know that person who talks about themselves all the time. Now, I think it's rife these days, and what it reflects to me is this: insecurity. The more you feel that you need to talk about yourself, the more suspicious one could be that you don't believe in yourself. And I think more people are onto that than you think. It's not what makes people listen; it's what makes people stop listening.
Frankie Kemp
I'm not saying that there isn't a time to be—I wouldn't say loud; I would say occupying more space, whatever that means, vocally or physically. But the key to communication is being adaptable and congruent with your message. I'm going to peel this back because a lot of people get presence mixed up with charisma.
Niels Brabandt
Yes, okay. Very good. Go for it.
Frankie Kemp
So the Latin translation of—sorry, it's a Greek word. The Greek translation of charis is favour. And so what charisma means is actually exhorting favour. In turn, that means being influential. So there's Professor John Antonakis, and he's from the University of Lucerne, and he quantified 12 attributes to being influential or charisma or presence. He talked about—and it wasn't just he was talking about it. This is based on his research: moral conviction, the ability to tell stories, analogies, and nonverbals that are congruent with your message.
Frankie Kemp
I'll give you an example of what I mean by congruence in nonverbals. If I say, "Niels, you're doing really well." Now, did you see what I did there at the end?
Niels Brabandt
Yeah, yeah. It looked a bit like—I mean, when you tell me I do really well, maybe focus on me and not just, "Yeah, you know, Frankie, you're doing really well, right? Cool."
Frankie Kemp
Right. So I see this in presentations all the time, these self-comforting motions that I describe in detail in my blog in a recent post on body language. And I've taken photos of people doing the finger rub, the neck rub, or when you make yourself smaller. So I see this: men and women both have slightly different leanings towards different body language traits that belie the confidence that they're trying to portray.
Frankie Kemp
Now, by making sure that your body language is congruent with your message, you are seen as more trustworthy. There was a massive study with 900 people who observed CEOs, and these CEOs were doing their IPO roadshows around the states. And the sound was turned off with the viewers watching the CEOs and guessing the ones with the higher ratings on their companies. And they guessed correctly based on the nonverbals, okay?
Frankie Kemp
And then the sound was switched on, and then the researchers tested for other characteristics. And what they realised was this: that when these CEOs spoke in a way that was congruent with their message, for example, they used gesture in line with vocal emphasis, "You're doing really well," and they didn't leak these little gestures, which are very telling.
Niels Brabandt
"You're doing really well." Yeah.
Frankie Kemp
Yes, exactly. This was one of the characteristics that these CEOs were all embodying. I mean, another one was using the power sphere. So on virtual calls, if—and I'm talking about Anglo-Saxon American culture, it does differ depending on what culture you're in. But if you're doing this on the screen, it's seen as out of control. But if you use what is called the power sphere, which is virtually it would be from the bottom lip to the mid torso, this area is seen as controlled, contained, assured, but also expressive. So when we talk about presence or charisma, it is these kind of characteristics that convey the presence.
Frankie Kemp
And Elizabeth Cantor from Harvard, she talked about another key element in presence, and that is the ability to listen.
Niels Brabandt
Many leaders struggle with that, I can tell you. So how do I learn how to listen when you got trained for years? When you are on high level in an organisation, you probably learned, "I need to enter the room and tell people what to do, and they expect me to talk, not to listen that much." How do you train yourself to listen more?
Frankie Kemp
I think that's an unfortunate misunderstanding of what leadership is.
Niels Brabandt
Absolutely. As I'm a leadership expert, I am fully aware, so.
Frankie Kemp
It's not about telling people what to do, although it can be.
Niels Brabandt
In certain areas and in certain situations, absolutely. So what do you tell people who now say, "Look, my personal trait always was very outgoing. I'm rather extrovert. I just don't know when I should stop talking because I always think people like when I talk, and they just keep on talking"?
Niels Brabandt
Maybe you know these people who just missed the point where it was really nice to listen, and they keep on talking. Anyone is sitting there like, "We got it. Can we get back to work now?" I mean, we got work to do. They kept talking, talking, talking. How can people learn the balance between talking and listening?
Frankie Kemp
Sometimes one needs a very honest conversation, which is, "This is the effect that you are really having on people." But sometimes it's not that. Sometimes it's to cover up an insecurity or because somebody told them years ago at the beginning of their career that you need to be heard in order to be visible. And visibility isn't about being hurt necessarily. It could be about just being involved, being seen. I mean, we already know that leaders who are seen more amongst their teams, that even just if it's a walkabout, have more influence. So it's that powerful. You don't even need to be heard.
Frankie Kemp
I do think it's very important with some people to realise, especially if they're saying, "Everyone likes it when I speak all the time." One can bet that is not true. And a reality check on the effect that they might be having is very important. But also there is a misunderstanding about what listening is. So sometimes people think listening is responding with advice or just responding.
Frankie Kemp
So when Elizabeth Moss Cantor talks about listening, she also talks about seeking to understand. Now, Charles Duhigg broke this down beautifully in Super Communicators. And this is one thing. It seems it's simple, but it's not easy to do unless you train yourself. So I've used this in pharma with MSLs. I've used this with all sorts of people in consultancy roles.
Frankie Kemp
It's techniques like looping. So with looping, what you're doing is you're paraphrasing what you hear, and then you are asking whether you've understood correctly. And they've used looping in highly charged situations, for example, in a social experiment with the gun lobby and the anti-gun lobby in America, to see whether they could create spaces where people would listen and seek to understand. And it had a transformative effect on everybody who went through this programme. And it was guided by another Harvard lecturer who was in law—she's actually a legal professor—and she guided them through looping, through the whole technique of looping in order to reduce conflict. Now, you might not be in a situation where you are needing to reduce conflict, although I can bet my bottom dollar that will be part of your job.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah, most likely.
Frankie Kemp
Most likely. But the other skills also, for example, summarising, knowing how to challenge with calibrated questions so that it's not on you to come up with solutions or opinions. What it is on you to do with listening—and this will increase your presence. So coming back to the original question—is to scout, to scout for the underlying truth, for the unsaid, knowing what questions to ask, for example, so that you can solve the right problem. I mean, I see this in tech all the time. I see this in engineering all the time. People come up with a problem. Everybody bounces into Slack to try and solve it. The managers completely lose the thread because no one's asking the questions, "Are you even solving the right problem?" That's listening. That's presence, online, offline.
Niels Brabandt
Perfect. I think these are the perfect final words. And now, of course, we say, "What's happening right now when you are staying in front of people and you don't only have to be present, but you also have to pitch to people?" And let's say that is way more complex than that because no one's waiting for being pitched. However, that is our episode number three. So stay tuned. We're going to have a third episode coming up very soon. And for today, there's only one thing left for me to say: Frankie, thank you very much for your time.
Frankie Kemp
Lovely. Thank you, Niels.