#434 The Leadership Lessons of Highly Defective Bosses - Joel Hilchey interviewed by Niels Brabandt
The Leadership Lessons of Highly Defective Bosses
By Niels Brabandt
In corporate life, almost everyone can recall both the brilliance of a great boss and the frustrations of a not-so-great one. In a recent conversation with Joel Hilchey, international keynote speaker, performer, and author of The Six and a Half Habits of Highly Defective Bosses, we explored why poor leadership persists, what makes it so damaging, and how organisations can respond.
Hilchey’s journey is unconventional. With a master’s degree in engineering, he initially entered the corporate world, only to exit after just three weeks. “I was always the socially engaged engineer,” he told me. “I loved entertaining, teaching, and bringing people together. Databases didn’t have much personality.” That realisation led him into training, development, and ultimately, leadership. Over 19 years, he grew a small company into a team of facilitators, discovering, sometimes the hard way, what it means to be a boss.
The concept of the “accidental boss” is central to Hilchey’s work. Research shows that nearly 80 per cent of managers never set out to lead; they were promoted for their technical excellence or to address a business need. “Entrepreneurs often just want to do a thing,” Hilchey said. “Suddenly they realise they need people to help, and now they’re in management—without training, without preparation.” His book distils those lessons into what he calls the “Six and a Half Habits of Highly Defective Bosses.”
The Six and a Half Habits
Hilchey’s framework captures the recurring patterns of poor leadership that surface across industries:
Function Forgetting: Neglecting one or more core duties: strategy, project management, team dynamics, or career development.
Mediocrity Mongering: Suppressing high performers to protect the average, often driving away top talent.
Hassle Making: Allowing minor but chronic obstacles like outdated technology and broken processes to suffocate productivity.
Credit Stealing and Finger Pointing: Claiming victories while deflecting blame, a dynamic as corrosive in the office as in a cartoon villain’s lair.
Feedback Fumbling: Avoiding, mishandling, or rejecting feedback, leaving teams rudderless.
Bully Bossing: Using fear and manipulation as a management tool, creating toxic cultures.
6.5. Consistent Inconsistency: Changing priorities on a whim, leaving teams destabilised and distrustful.
What makes Hilchey’s approach stand out is not cynicism but hope. He insists that most defective bosses are not inherently bad people; they operate with flawed ideas about management. “Good people become bad bosses because they haven’t learned what leadership actually requires,” he said. “The good news is we can change our ideas.”
Why It Matters
The stakes are high. As I noted during our conversation, Glassdoor data shows leadership behaviour is the number-one reason employees leave or stay. Hilchey agrees: job satisfaction is six times more strongly correlated with an employee’s relationship to their manager than with colleagues. In other words, bosses make or break workplaces.
Hilchey also highlights an underappreciated leadership resource: fun. “Work is often seen as the opposite of fun,” he said. “But I’m far more productive when I enjoy myself. Fun creates energy, builds culture, and sustains performance.” This insistence on fun is not frivolity; it is a recognition that engagement and morale drive results.
The Long Shadow of Bad Leadership
Both Hilchey and I have seen how defective bosses leave lasting marks. I recalled a pharmaceutical executive whose micromanagement and faux-feedback sessions became a byword among staff for frustration. A decade after leaving the company, former employees still gathered to celebrate his eventual dismissal. “That’s how long bad leadership sticks,” I noted. Hilchey nodded. The damage defective bosses inflict—whether through mediocrity, micromanagement, or bullying—outlives their tenure.
Toward Intentional Leadership
Ultimately, Hilchey’s mission is not to shame, but to invite change. His book and speaking tours aim to replace accidental leadership with intentional leadership. “The world needs intentional bosses,” he said. “Better bosses create better workplaces, and better workplaces create happier people. That makes for a better world.”
For leaders, the challenge is clear. Recognise the habits of highly defective bosses, root them out, and replace them with practices that empower teams, reward excellence, and cultivate trust. For organisations, investing in leadership development is not optional—it is the foundation of culture and retention.
Joel Hilchey’s The Six and a Half Habits of Highly Defective Bosses is available wherever books are sold. For more information, including a free self-assessment, visit JoelHilchey.com.
As a leadership expert and founder of NB Networks, I, Niels Brabandt, believe Hilchey’s work is a timely reminder: the future of business rests not in quarterly results alone, but in the quality of leadership shaping the people behind them.
Niels Brabandt
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More on this topic in this week's videocast and podcast with Niels Brabandt: Videocast / Apple Podcasts / Spotify
For the videocast’s and podcast’s transcript, read below this article.
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Let's have a chat: NB@NB-Networks.com
Contact: Niels Brabandt on LinkedIn
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Niels Brabandt is an expert in sustainable leadership with more than 20 years of experience in practice and science.
Niels Brabandt: Professional Training, Speaking, Coaching, Consulting, Mentoring, Project & Interim Management. Event host, MC, moderator.
Podcast Transcript
Niels Brabandt
We probably all know great bosses and we probably know, well, not so great bosses. And I have an expert on exactly that topic here with me today. Hello and welcome. Joel Hilchi.
Joel Hilchey
Hello. Great to be here, Niels.
Niels Brabandt
Thank you very much for taking the time. So I saw that you now are a keynote speaker, a very entertaining one. You speak on bosses, corporate culture, what's around that. And I saw you have a degree in engineering, and not only the basic one, you have a master's degree in engineering. So you probably thought a bit about doing that. How did that happen to go from engineering to where you are today? Because that's quite a way to go, isn't it?
Joel Hilchey
It was. I was always the socially engaged engineer. I know there's all sorts of jokes about, you know, what's the definition of the extroverted engineer? It's the one who looks at your shoes instead of his own or something, you know, and, but, but I was the one. My, the favourite part of my university experience was going to these coffee house talent shows. You know, every club on campus has these things and I had a little juggling act and I, I loved making people laugh and I, I liked showing people it was okay to be a little bit weird. I like bringing people together for a good cause.
So I was always this entertainer side, but I also was a teacher. I loved being a tutor and a teaching assistant. And I found my way really quickly out of the world of databases, which didn't have so much personality and.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah, probably not much personality in there.
Joel Hilchey
No, no, it just, it was really obvious to me. I only lasted four weeks in the corporate world. Okay, that's not even really true. I was on vacation for one of the weeks, Neil.
Niels Brabandt
Three weeks. Yeah.
Joel Hilchey
And. And I found my way into the world of training and development and really loved it and found this great, like, matchup for my skillset. And then over. Over 19 years now, we built a training company and we're small, we do career skills workshops, largely in education. I work in associations and corporate culture as well. But we've got, you know, 10 facilitators and five of us full time on staff. And through that process, I became not just a solopreneur, but an accidental boss.
And I stumbled into some practises that work. And I definitely made a lot of mistakes. And as I talked about some of these things with audiences and with clients, they said, wait, what do you do here to build that culture? Like, I've got a team of, you know, 10 people or 15 people. How do you do this? How do you? I'm so busy.
What do I do? And that's what inspired the new book, the Six and a Half Habits of Highly Defective Bosses. Serious lessons.
Niels Brabandt
Absolutely. And I think that's another important message in there because you often hear about people who say, when you want to be a leader and the boss, you need to have the vision and the plan and this and that and it's all in place and then fulfil it. It sounds like you didn't have any of that and then suddenly you became a boss.
Joel Hilchey
No, exactly. In fact, the research says about 80% of bosses of leaders managers identify as what they consider to be like accidental bosses.
Niels Brabandt
I come from a family of teachers, I studied teaching. My way was not designed to be free enterprise. And after uni it immediately became free enterprise. Only by pure coincidence.
Joel Hilchey
Yes, yes. A lot of people, you know, entrepreneurs, they, they usually just want to do a thing and then realise that they need a team to help get it done. You know, they, they didn't, they didn't set out to like, I want to manage people, you know, they're just trying to do a thing. A lot of people are senior technical experts around the table and then their boss leaves and someone says, well, you seem to know what you're doing. Why don't you lead the team? I talked with an investment banker the other day, he said the, the culture in I banking is very much like a sports team. You know, the bosses are the top producers on the team, almost like a team captain.
But, but these are people, they don't, they don't want to manage people that.
Niels Brabandt
Don'T know how to lead people.
Joel Hilchey
No, no, there's often no training. They didn't go to school for it. And that was what appealed to me about this.
I mean, my own journey. I was an accidental boss. I was three years in to managing people. I tell this story in the book, but one of my employees, my assistant came to me and had an issue because somebody on the team had said something inappropriate and she, she said, what should we do?
Do we have policy for this? I had kind of lousy answers. Policy? No. Well, should we do something about this? Probably yes. You know, are you going to do something about this? Okay, yeah.
And the next day, debriefing that with my wife, I had this realisation that she was coming to me not as my assistant, but as her employer. Like she had expectations of me that, you know, so I have this mind blowing moment where I'm like, oh, I'm three years into having employees realising for the first time that, like I'm the boss. Yeah.
Niels Brabandt
Like there you are, put on the spot.
Joel Hilchey
Yes. So, so many people I think get, you know, asked to manage a project or manage team. Often it's informal leadership roles. They don't have any formal power at all. But they're managing a project, but they're, they're the team leader functionally and, and often nobody tells them, here are some things you should do or shouldn't do. And a lot of people have had experiences with people who are doing things they should not do. Yeah, unfortunately.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah. I mean, when you look on glassdoor.com today, you see that the number one reason why people leave or stay is the leadership behaviour. So.
Joel Hilchey
Yes. Yes. And in terms of job satisfaction, it turns out that the number one factor in job satisfaction is people's relationships with their, with their, with managers, in fact, in particular turns out to be about six times more important than relationships with their coworkers. That surprised me. But just, you know, underscore, you have.
Niels Brabandt
Frequent contact with and you don't want to have someone to be one of these contacts of. Okay, once a week I have to make this person bearable and then I'm finally through.
That's nothing, right? Nothing you're looking forward to when it goes wrong.
Joel Hilchey
Right, Right.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah. So when you are in and you, you seem to be in for anything about fun and when we look at your website, I think we can see that you are in for fun. That is pretty obvious, I think here.
Joel Hilchey
Absolutely. You know, the. I, I believe that fun is an undervalued resource.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah.
Joel Hilchey
Fun is. A lot of people think of work as the opposite of fun. You know, they think if we got a serious problem, we better get serious about that. Yeah. And that's a, it's a fine idea, I guess, but in my experience I'm way more productive when I'm enjoying myself.
Niels Brabandt
Of course. And also you don't want to have something where you say, hey, we have about two days of fun per week in average and about five days of enduring the non. Fun part. Non fun part of my life.
Joel Hilchey
Right.
Niels Brabandt
And when, when someone says the projection is you have to do 40 years of that. And let's be honest, that's the pretty positive.
Joel Hilchey
Yes.
Niels Brabandt
Pretty optimistic way of looking at it. If we look in the future, probably more than 40 years.
Joel Hilchey
Yeah.
Niels Brabandt
This amazing book, the Six and a Half Habits of Highly Defective Bosses, probably slightly alluding to another book title which I'm not going to mention here. And also you're pretty successful with it because you're touring the country. When I see what you're holding in your hands on your website. What do you do with these bosses?
Joel Hilchey
Right, that's okay. No, those are for entertainment, not for the bosses themselves.
Niels Brabandt
Although we are considering might be of German origin, but I get that. Yeah. So no worries. So what are the six and a half habits of highly defective bosses?
Joel Hilchey
Okay, so I can try to run through them quickly. These things are, are the way I came up with these is that I listened to what people were saying about their people's stories. You know, I asked have you had bad bosses? Almost everybody has a bad boss story. And over time the first things that I wrote down actually shifted as I wrote the book because as people shared their stories said ah, it's not really this, it's this other thing. So okay, so habit one is called function forgetting. This is the, the act of forgetting that you have many duties as a boss.
The way I think of it is short term and long term and task focused and people focused. So you've got at least four areas of responsibility. The short term task focused stuff is the project management. That's where most people are most comfor comfortable long term task focused strategy. As you become a leader, you're responsible for thinking like are we doing the right projects? Not just are we getting things done. On the people focused side, all of a sudden the short term you're responsible for the team dynamics of the group.
And most leaders really had that's, that's a surprise to them. Oh, right. People aren't getting along now they're coming to me to make that right in some way. And the long term part, this is in my experience the most forgotten thing long term people focused is career development. You know, a lot of bosses or managers are a bit reluctant to have these honest conversations about career development in part because they feel like they're coaching people off of the team. You know, they say what are you doing after you work with me? But that's not true.
That's a misnomer or a fallacy to think that way. They're thinking about that anyways and the question is whether you want to be part of that conversation or stick your head in the sand and ignore it. So the first habit is don't forget any of the functions. Don't be a function forgetter. Second habit is mediocrity mongering. And the idea here is that certain people on your team will be high producers, disproportionately high producers, a players. You've talked about this.
How do you keep your top talent. And there's really a few things you can do with them. One is you can encourage them and celebrate them. Another is that you can discourage them or maybe ignore them, but we'll lump that in with discouraging. And at first glance, some people might think, well, why would you ever discourage your high achievers? And the answer is that many people have been on teams where the majority is made to feel more comfortable by actually squashing the high performers.
Niels Brabandt
I can tell you an example just from last week. One of my friends works in retail. And let's face it, retail is hard to get high producers there.
Joel Hilchey
Yes.
Niels Brabandt
Put in a rule. She works in a perfume place. And they told her and everyone else, you now get commission on each sale. And she starts. Starts to sell record amount of perfume really forward. And after three months, her boss takes it to the side and say, sorry, you, you just earned too much money. You're close to my salary.
That's not okay. We're going to cap your commission from now on. At that point.
Joel Hilchey
So disappointing, straightforward, unfair.
Niels Brabandt
It is pushing mediocrity across the whole team. And also, surprise, surprise, hear the news. She's going to resign at the end of this month. Of course she will.
Joel Hilchey
Yeah, of course. Somebody told me a story. She said, my boss actually came to me and said, oh, slow down, you're making everybody else look bad. And she said, I thought that was just a thing people pretended to say when they were pretending to be insecure. I'm not working for that company anymore. And it was a good job. But she did not want to work there anymore.
Bosses have to decide what do I want to do with my high performers. And bad bosses are mediocrity mongers. They create a culture of mediocrity. Great bosses encourage those high performers and nurture them. Yeah. Habit three is hassle making. The little things in life are sometimes disproportionately infuriating.
I don't know if you feel this way, Neil. Sometimes. You ever have little things. So people, a classic example here. When people are working with people think.
Niels Brabandt
People who think that broccoli is acceptable food in any day.
Joel Hilchey
My dad had a joke. He said, oh, I heard about this recipe for eating kale. You saute your kale with some olive oil. It helps it slide off the pan into the garbage can.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah, perfect, whatever.
Joel Hilchey
So you ever hear of stories where people are working with bad tools, you know, like outdated computers or whatever, and they say, oh, I can't get the. And they're pounding away on these things and it takes a day and a half to get the IT thing. I don't have the permission to do that. And they might be amazing at their job, but these little frustrations that like slow them down are hugely annoying to them. And great bosses dismantle those obstacles and bad bosses tend to enforce them or like or, or just ignore. And they don't seem to care.
Niels Brabandt
You're so negative, Joel. You're so negative. Just see what we have. See the positive side. And by the way, in a year and a half, we get a new budget for computers.
So just accept it. Acceptance is the key. What they need is resignation.
Joel Hilchey
Yes. Yes. Yeah. So great leaders that I've, I've talked, they, they have like d hassle a thons, you know, where they say, let's take it.
What's bothering you right now. And they view part of their role as I just like removing obstacles for their team, especially their high performers want to fly and they got to get the, get the junk out of the way for them. Habit 4 is credit stealing and finger pointing. I sort of smushed two together. But this often stems from an insecurity that bosses have where they need to hoard the credit for themselves when things go well and they need to deflect the blame if things don't. And this is, this is almost cartoonish. You know, childhood cartoons, there was always some big meaning of a villain who had a henchman, you know, sidekick.
And if the henchman went out and did his job, then the villains, like, I'm the smartest, you know, bad guy in the world. And, and if the, if the henchman, the crony sidekick messed up, then the villain would go, you imbecile. How could you do that? And of course, this is, this is cartoonish in cartoons so that even six year olds can understand that the villain was the real idiot here, of course. But this is surprisingly common, unfortunately.
Niels Brabandt
And unfortunately, Peter Drucker in 1975, I think, already pointed out the concept of reverse accountability. You cannot take other people's credit and blame them when they do something wrong.
Joel Hilchey
Right, right. Great leaders do the opposite. They're the first ones to take responsibility when things go wrong and say, you know what, I was in charge here. I should have seen this sooner. And they take ownership of their part in it. And then what does everybody want? Great employees want recognition.
Turns out recognition. And it's the frequency of the recognition, not even the quantity or magnitude of it that matters. We need to find every opportunity to say thank you for that. I see that you did this. Thank you for your piece of this puzzle. That was a great contribution.
I value you. Great leaders share the credit and take the blame when things don't go well. Habit five is feedback fumbling. I know you've written a bit on this. There's lots of ways to be bad at feedback, but three big ones are. Number one, to not do it at all, to just hope that they don't have to, or of course people want to.
Niels Brabandt
I only do it when they have something to criticise and call it feedback instead of criticism.
Joel Hilchey
Right, Right. So one way is to not do it, one way is to do it badly. And a third way to be bad at it is to not be receptive, not take feedback. Because employees have their perspectives also and often they're quite valuable and helpful. So don't be a feedback fumbler. Learn lots of good ways of having hard conversations, but important conversations also.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah.
Joel Hilchey
Habit 6 is bully bossing. This is probably the one where most people think of that like they imagine, like the hard headed bully of a boss. It's not always just the biggest loudmouth in the room because really bully bossing is about using power tactics, fear and power tactics to get results. And some bullies are sly and socially manipulative and they leave everybody feeling uncertain. This is really problematic. This creates toxic cultures and even if it works in the short term, it is destined to fail because the relationships, they just fall apart so quickly. My advice for people who have bully bosses is generally to find a different job, find a different team to work on.
These people are the hardest ones to change. The good news is that these tend to be the minority of, at least from the people I've talked with. I don't have good research on this, but the bully bosses are the minority of bad bosses. Most people are dissatisfied with their bosses for far less significant things. They say, oh, my boss never paid attention to my career development. My boss couldn't get us a new computer screen. My boss couldn't, you know, he just, he shut down my buddy who is a high performer.
He stole the credit from my colleague's work. It's far less trivial or sorry, far less significant than like, you know, abuse and threats. So it's the small stuff that makes people really upset a lot of the time. The sixth and a half habit. Okay, seventh, but I gave it a half habit status. I should have started with this one because people always ask, what's the half habit? Consistently inconsistent.
Which didn't feel worthy of full habit status to be inconsistent. You know, this one is really about not having enough predictability in one's routine. It creates chaos around them. Founders and sort of the stereotypical, you know, visionary leaders tend to fall subject to this because they're driven by their whims and they're like, no, we're surfing the world's demands. We're changing, you know, with the tides here and we got to do this, we're innovating and everybody else is left going, whoa, last week you said to do this, this week you said to do this. And what about this project now? We left that behind.
We're not doing it anymore. Inconsistency drives people nuts.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah.
Joel Hilchey
Now, I'm not saying we need no consistency. There's an inverted U curve here, you know, one of these diagrams that, for the people watching here, you can. One of these inverted U curve diagrams. There we go. And two more. Consistency is better than no consistency. But too much consistency is also bad because if we have too much consistency, we have no capacity to innovate or change things. Right. If we're only paying attention to our policies and not to reality, we end up over here on the curve.
We want to be somewhere in the middle. Enough consistency to have a safety net of predictability, but not so much consistency that we shut down innovation and creative thinking. So those are the six and a half habits of highly defective bosses. What stands out to you there about that stuff, Neils, have you had bad bosses yourself?
Niels Brabandt
I was very fortunate. My first boss was a very brilliant one, but I had one of the same level who was the definition of a. Because that's why I. For me, the feedback bit was like, he showed up first, he was a micromanager. The other one was one very good boss. The other one, not so much in a pharmaceutical company. He was a total micromanager.
And he always showed up saying, neil, I have some feedback. And feedback means you don't talk.
I talk only. I give you straightforward criticism and you accept everything. You don't question. And as soon as you ask any kind of counter questions, that's going to be criticised immediately for not accepting my critique.
Joel Hilchey
Oh, gosh.
Niels Brabandt
My good boss kept him at a distance when he could. And that helped a lot because my. My very first boss, my main boss, was a brilliant one.
Joel Hilchey
Oh, that's.
Niels Brabandt
The other boss was so bad, I'm going to change his name to Christian now. That's. That. That was not his name. About a decade later, a colleague who is still in that pharmaceutical company sent me a message on LinkedIn. We didn't have contact for a Decade and only the match was only guess who got fired today. And I only answered Christian.
And he said yes. And we're having a dinner with all the former colleagues on that day. When you're available, come along. And I came.
Joel Hilchey
Wow.
Niels Brabandt
That's how long bad leadership sticks.
Joel Hilchey
Wow. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. What that whole culture forms around the bad boss and how to handle that. That's actually common. Somebody told me a story of a boss who, it was sort of pathological. He couldn't hear other people's ideas.
You know, it like had to come from this person. And the whole team knew it. And so they would devise these elaborate plans to sort of plant the idea, but make the boss feel like, oh, that was the boss, you know, that was the boss's idea.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah.
Joel Hilchey
And everybody knew it. And they said it was particularly apparent when the idea came from women. You know, it was so women and.
Niels Brabandt
Minorities take the blame for everything.
Joel Hilchey
Yes. You mentioned one other thing that I want to comment on, which is the micromanaging.
And this is. This falls into the hassle making category for me. One of the sources of hassles, I think, is fuzzy expectations. Unclear expectations are so damaging. And micromanagement actually comes, I think, downstream of the initial problem of fuzzy expectations. If a boss is micromanaging, it's because they don't trust that the outcome is going to be achieved.
Niels Brabandt
We had a saying in the office, and the saying always was, you have all the freedom you have under Christian as long as you complete everything he thinks of based on half of the idea he communicated to you. So you get 50% and you have to figure out the other 50, but exactly of what he's thinking.
Joel Hilchey
Yes.
Niels Brabandt
Okay, cool. That's freedom, right?
Joel Hilchey
Yeah. Oh, gosh. It's impossible. And from the boss's perspective, even if we're being generous. So leaders listening to this, you can say, all right, it is worth the time to clarify your own expectations because it will free you of micromanagement down the line. You won't need to micromanage because you'll say, I've communicated everything I need to know or everything everybody needs to know about this thing. And then you've got whatever freedom you want to achieve that. Yeah. So that's a little practical tip is, is really get clear on.
I mean, the Agile framework says, what's the definition of done? You know, what, what are the metrics? What do we have to have completed? What are the checkboxes? And if we meet those criteria or those metrics, then everything else is like great, we did it. And that's also empowering for the team. So that's a little thing.
Micromanagement comes up so often, but I think the source of it is not always just an untrusting person. It's somebody who can't or who hasn't figured out how to be clear. Sometimes maybe they don't. They're not being clear because they don't want to impose on people. You know, there are maybe a big, big picture takeaway here is that in my experience, most people's comments about bad bosses, most bad bosses are that they're good people, but they were bad bosses. You know, they often start with something, you know, she certainly built a great business but you know, I mean, he's brilliant but gosh, management working for him is challenging. But if you can get over this, then.
And so good people become bad bosses not because they're bad humans, but because they have bad ideas about how it is to manage and what, what matters. And the good news there is that we can change our ideas.
We can learn stuff. Exactly.
Niels Brabandt
And when we want to change these ideas. That's a good point here to wrap this interview up. So first, of course, where can people get your book and when can they get and of course when they now, which is always a brilliant idea, want to have you on site for their events. How can they get in touch? Where, where can they find you?
Joel Hilchey
How.
Niels Brabandt
Yes, they get in touch with you.
Joel Hilchey
The, the best way to reach me Joel Hilchy.com that's, that's my website. Joel Hilchi.com Wait, you're writing this inverted, right? Well, it's a magic trick. Yes. For those watching, you're seeing me right on the screen Joel Hilchi.com and I'll show you the trick afterwards. You can reach out, you can find me on, on the social media things as well. If you want to take a free self assessment about your boss styles Joel Hilchy.com/bosses will do that for you.
And you can get the book anywhere. Anywhere books are sold. Look online, it'll be there. The six and a half habits of highly defective bosses. You want bulk orders? You can come to me directly but on Amazon on, on all the places and it's out mid September. So looking forward to hearing from all of you.
I would love to hear your stories as well. Maybe one last little invitation for the, the listeners. If you have a bad boss story, I would love to hear it. You can, you can reach out through the website or write to bossesolhilchi.com what I have loved through this process is hearing everybody's stories and being able to hold some of the pent up frustration from people over the years and also hearing the stories of people's great bosses. Because what I've come to believe through writing this book is that the world needs intentional bosses, that bosses have a huge influence on culture, on the employee experience really, you know, it's the number one factor for people. And so I just believe we need to make the world better. We can make better leadership and that makes better workplaces and that makes happier people and a better world to live in.
So that's where I come from.
Niels Brabandt
Yeah, I think these are the perfect final words. Six and a half habits of highly effective bosses. Joey Hilchi.com reach out to him. Brilliant entertainer, brilliant person, brilliant expert. Joel, thank you very much for your time.
Joel Hilchey
It's been such a privilege. Thanks Niels.